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Jim Harold interviews experts on metaphysics in this PLUS ONLY podcast. For Jim's other PLUS shows, go to

Feb 27, 2022

Natalie Zett joins us to share how writing about her family history uncovered secrets that have resonated throughout the generations.

You can find her book at Amazon: Flower in the River: A Family Tale, Finally Told

Thanks Natalie!


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Please note we do not guarantee 100% transcript accuracy. The below reflects a best effort. Thank you for your understanding.

Jim Harold 0:00
Fleeting glimpses of things seen through a veil darkly. Do we understand the meaning of these visions of life, why we are here and how little of our existence we truly understand? Tonight, we will talk of these things on the Other Side. Welcome to the Other Side, I am Jim Harold, and so glad to be with you once again. And something that I find you might not look at it as mystical at first, but genealogy and looking back in the history of your family, and then it almost has a mystical quality. And in the sense of our guest today, her story does have a mystical quality because things that happened generations ago in our family continue to impact her and her family years later. And if that's not kind of metaphysical, I don't know what is. Our guest today is Natalie Zett. She is the author of the very recent book Flower in the River: a family tale finally told, and Natalie has a very interesting background, really a renaissance woman. She's been a writer and is a writer, she's been an actor, photographer, and musician. And actually, she grew up in the same area that I did in Cleveland, which is kind of one of those cool synchronicities and we're so glad to have her on the show. She majored in Business Administration, but then she graduated from Luther Seminary in Minnesota where she received an MA in systematic theology or system. Did I get that right? Is it systematic?

Natalie Zett 1:34
You got it right. Don't ask me what it is, though, Jim.

Jim Harold 1:37
Well, that's like I have a master's in applied communication theory and methodology, whatever that means. We don't know what but anyway, my mind's a truly a useless degree. If I were going on to get a PhD, it would have been great, but I didn't do that. But anyway, so glad to have you on the show and talk about this. Now, I know, obviously, you've been listening to the shows for years, you're a member of the Plus Club. Thank you for that. But what made you decide to get into the history of your family? What, what made you say, Natalie, this is a story that needs to be told and I'm the one that needs to tell it?

Natalie Zett 2:15
Um. It was one of those strange things, Jim, where I was somewhat estranged from my family. And I relocated, I thought it was really smart to come up to Minnesota because I thought I don't have any family here, within a 100 mile radius, or 20o mile radius, or so I thought. And I am probably could be voted the least likely to be a family historian. But things happened and I was up here for about 1012 years, I got my master's degree from Cliff seminary with a systematic theology, and I was working as an IT person, because that's what you do with a theology degree. And I did other creative things. And as moving along, then my dad died in 1996, and all of a sudden, every decision I had made, and everything that I had done to that point, came to a grinding halt. And I had a lot of self recrimination. Oh, God, should I have done it differently? What did I do? And I was in grief, but also just re examining my whole life. And I think that's appropriate, sometimes it junctures like that. And my heart was completely splayed open. I was just, and then maybe a few months later, my mother's sister who I thought was dead, living in Chicago, she was in her 80s. And a retired reporter. She'd been out of the industry for probably 50, 60 years, who knows how long, but she knew I was a published writer, and had a very successful writing career up until that point. And she sent me this 38 page family history. And she said, you're the only one who could do something with this. So besides the fact I thought she was dead. I was reading through this. And my mother's mother. This is about my mother's mother's side of the family died when my mom was three. They were living in Johnstown, and the rest of her family immigrated to Chicago, and they stayed there. They lost all contact. So my mother was raised by her father in Johnstown, lost most contact with her relatives in Chicago. And therefore, we knew nothing about this side of the family. And I thought, even though I was curious, little kid, is that there's nothing to learn here. So I started slipping through this document. And because my Aunt Pearl was was a reporter, and she was so thorough, everything was organized in these little columns. And she did everything by typewriter, and I thought how to do that. And I was reading through these names, and I thought, These are my family. And so I saw my grandmother's name on a cipher, all these siblings, and then I was flipping through the pages and I saw something that said, Martha's, or my grandmother on his sister, Martha Pfeiffer was killed at age 19. In a ferry boat accident, I thought a ferry boat accident in Chicago. I thought what an I was reading further where there were 800, some people killed in downtown Chicago in 1915. And I thought, No way, I would have heard of that I was always drawn to Chicago, even as a child. I had been to Chicago a few times on the way from Ohio to Minnesota, you saw through Chicago, I always felt a connection with Chicago. So that's where it started, I thought, how could we not have this and by then, I had this information. And by then I was writing regularly for one of the local papers. And I thought I'll write about this thing, whatever this thing is, and I couldn't find any information. Again, this is in the 90s. And the internet was not quite what it became,

Right. In its nascent, early days.

Nacent early days is a beautiful way to describe that and I went to the library. And I thought, What is wrong with this? And I thought, Why have I not heard of this woman? Why have I not heard of this disaster. So that's how it started. And I don't want to just keep rambling on if there's one piece you want to direct this, but that's how it all began with me as a reporter. It's how it began.

Jim Harold 6:04
And again, you have such a great varied background writer reporter also now you're an IT specialist. Now, let me ask you this, do you feel that, you know, we certainly get our health characteristics, our appearance, and so forth? Through through the lineage and so forth? We inherit different physical traits. Do you also think we inherit different spiritual traits? And perhaps, worries and sadnesses of past generation somehow?

Natalie Zett 6:42
I think you're right. I, it's a difficult thing to prove, Jim. But in terms of my life, one of my cousins after what I said after like 500 coincidences, Natalie, maybe it's not a coincidence anymore, there are just so many things that were and for me, I want to backtrack a little bit when I was in Cleveland, my family was all four of my grandparents were from the old country, Eastern Europe, we don't know what countries they were from, but they were from there. And and my mother insisted we were German. And we were going to be raised Lutheran, forgetting that my dad had a whole other lineage but that's didn't count. So one day we were in shaker square. I know, you know what that looks like? Yeah. And it was maybe four or five years old. And there was a book, a Hebrew book, and it was out on the display. And I was looking at it. And I said, Well, I know what that is. And my mom said, you do not know what that is. And I said, Well, what is it? I've seen this before? Should you have not seen this before? She said, this is Jewish writing. I said, I've seen this before. And I think we're Jewish, and she's so a grandfather was a member of the German American bond, that was her father, the pro Nazi group in the 1930s. So yeah, no. So she tried to silence that. But in fact, years later, after the DNA test, yes, you're Jewish, on my father's side, least partially. So it was one of those things where Absolutely, for whatever reason, even though I was the outlier, the black sheep of the family, whatever, I was able to resonate with certain things. And that happened all the way through even even my move up to Minnesota back to when I was digging around that little genealogy, your family history that my aunt had written. I saw something else besides the Eastland. Besides my Aunt Martha, I saw that my great great grandmother and her children had immigrated to western Wisconsin, which is about an hour and a half from where I was living.

Jim Harold 8:28
(overlapping speech) go ahead, go ahead.

Natalie Zett 8:32
No, you go ahead, Jim,

Jim Harold 8:33
I was gonna ask you about this Eastland disaster, because I should know as you know, Cleveland has a lot of old history, like with a torso killer, and those. So the local cases I'm fascinated by and as I understand it, the Eastland was an excursion boat, and it was known as the speed Queen of the Great Lakes. Right.

Natalie Zett 8:53
You did your homework, absolutely.

Jim Harold 8:55
Do my best. I do my best. Thank you, Google. Thank you, Google. But my point being tell if you can tell us a little bit about that and your family's role in that because I gotta tell you, that's very powerful when something like that happens.

Natalie Zett 9:12
Right. So the Eastland was, was one of I think, several ships that were chartered for Western Electrics' annual picnic, Western Electrics Cicero. The Hawthorne plan I'm sure that a lot of people have heard of that with the Hawthorne work studies and things like that about efficiency studies. That was all around that. But my grandmother's sister Martha, who was killed was not an employee of Western Electric my grandmother was but she was pregnant. So she gave Martha what I call the one way ticket. And Martha was 19 and she was I think she was kind of a badass, truth be told some of the photos that I have heard that what were you into, but she was a character. And so she and her girlfriend were lined up. The first ship was the Eastland and the thing was already was noted for its listing problem. It already had unsteadiness. So what they did is they loaded the the bottom I guess with concrete and then they put a bunch of lifeboats on top. And it's just like...?

Jim Harold 10:08
That's not very safe.

Natalie Zett 10:10
Well, there was one woman who I met at one of the Eastland events many years later. And she was a little girl when it happened. And she ended up in the water. And she said, her memory was that it was like an egg that just kind of flipped over in the water. It was so quick. And so 1000s of people, I think there were 2500, at least on the ship on top and below, in the water. And then again, it was just a matter of this is 1915, it's hot day in Chicago, people are gathered around. And it's like, I mean, there was a photographer on the scene, I think, just to photograph it from the maybe one of the papers. And it's just like, there you are, all of a sudden, everything changed. So they're drilling holes in this thing trying to pull people out. I've gotten a lot of footage that I found that was lost for over 100 years that I'm going to post on my website that will will show some of the what would actually happen, but it was it was horrible. And they didn't have room for people. So they were taking the courses and whatever types of transportation they had down to the second Regiment Armory, which eventually became Oprah Winfrey studios, laying them out there. And it was just chaos. So I cannot imagine what that day was like. And then my family in the meantime was sitting back home, wondering, you know, she couldn't possibly have been gone. Her father was just just died the year before the family has so much tragedy. They were living in southwest Chicago, and they were all living near each other these people who worked for Western Electric, there was not a single I think all of Chicago was hit by this thing. Um, my, my great aunt was buried in Bethenia cemetery, which is next to Resurrection cemetery. And I'm sure people have heard of resurrection Mary, I'm faced, right a sort of resurrection Mary, there she is. And then but also the Bohemian National Cemetery in Chicago, who I think had the most victims of the Eastland. So this was just chaos. And how, again, Jim, how something like that could get lost in history\? I don't know.

Jim Harold 12:11
And the thing is, is that these old cities, and again, I mean, you have to you kind of have when you look back, I think we tend to and I do this to look back judgmentally. But really, it is true that safety was not at the top of the mind. It was not like we it's like, there'll be okay, everything will be fine. You know, oh, you know, if you people die, hey, we made some money. I mean, I'm not saying that's the case in every, like old American disaster. But I think it is the case in many American, old American historic disasters. And, and, yeah, just the kind of disregard for safety. It's kind of like, What were these people thinking? I know, there's a story in Cleveland, and I don't know if it's apocryphal or if it really happened. I think it may have happened, the Collingwood (overlapping speech) fire, and the doors. And if I remember correctly, I remember even hearing this when I was a little kid in the 70s. In elementary school, the reason the doors now go out, is because there were kids found burned to death because the doors did not reach out. They pulled in and kids were trying to get out of this school fire. And they were burned to death because they were you know, it's just your kind of instinct to push out to get out. And they couldn't get out because they were panicking and pushing instead of pulling.

Natalie Zett 13:34
And that is a true event. And somebody actually did recreation of it. I just seen a few years just tried to pick up the link for you if it still exists. So it's powerful.

Jim Harold 13:44
Now, how do you think that this tragedy for your family resonated through the years through the decades?

Natalie Zett 13:50
Sure. Well, one of the things, again, we were talking about Judge judgmentalism, and I think, you know, my sister and I were going back and forth about this too. And I said, we cannot understand the mindset of people from that era, because there was no psychological health. There was no social welfare programs other than a few things that the Red Cross or Western Electric might have given these families. So when they had tragedies, they sucked it up. But they didn't always suck it up really well. And so what happened was my grandmother, my mother's mother, went to the morgue to identify her sister. And, again, what did that do to my grandmother? And then her marriage with her first marriage was falling apart. There was a lot of violence, I think, with the first husband, and she eventually divorced him and any then eventually, she had two children. One of them was my aunt Pearl. The other one was a boy. She left them to go to back to Johnstown to marry my grandfather. So she left the kids in Chicago with their grandmother. And my sister said, why did she do that? I said, I don't think she could take being in Chicago when I was working on the book. I thought Grandma What did she choose? Such a thing. But I think her heart couldn't take it literally her heart couldn't take it. And then she had my mother nurse her secondary. And when my mother was three, my grandmother's heart exploded. And she died on the floor in their home. So the story was lost. So when I tell the story in the book, it's like that the story should have been lost. My mother didn't grow up with this story. And her older siblings were far far away. And they certainly didn't talk about the trauma.

Jim Harold 15:28
Yeah, that was the thing. I mean, you know, today, it's like, okay, let's take whatever trauma happened, and let's talk about it and talk through it. And it was diametrically opposed back then it's like, okay, let's not talk about this. This happened. But But I, for example, in my dad's family, and this is only in the 50s, my, they had a significantly younger brother, my dad had a significantly younger brother, who was probably, I don't know, he was about 13 years younger than my dad was. And he died of cancer, and very tragic. I think he was about six years old, five, six years old when he died. And you could just tell when you talk to my dad and his siblings, they would occasionally talk about but they weren't comfortable with it, they didn't want to talk about it. It's kind of like, well, it happened. Let's not talk about it, it's an awful thing. And I think that you know, up until relatively recently, that's been the coping mechanism and obviously not a very good one. Is that okay, let's not talk about that. That's unpleasant let's let's try to put that back deep in our minds. So how you know how do you feel the echoes of your predecessors?

Natalie Zett 16:46
Well, as I moved my way to get away from Cleveland, sorry, and I love Cleveland, but it wasn't it was never home to me that's a weird thing. I thought I don't belong here and it was almost like as if another I'm pretty much I should say qualifies by saying I am even though I grew up with my very magical family. On my dad's side theyre Eastern European we had the Roma thing going they were also Carpatho-Rusyns, they were always casting spells talking to the dead, and doing all these things. And when I as I was growing up, Jim, I thought Why can't my family be like to Leave It to Beaver, why are they likethe Addams Family? I did that that's a monsters you know. And I thought that

Jim Harold 17:27
For the record, the Addams Family and the Munsters were much cooler than Beaver Cleaver's family.

Natalie Zett 17:33
No, but I wanted to be normal! But you know, that said that that ship sailed a long time ago skews the ship metaphor. But but you know, kids are I think we were built because we tried to find balance. I think we just kind of go against the grain. And my mother was a little bit more on the logical side. So my dad's side zany musicians and doing all these things. But, but I wanted something normal. So I think I kept going west. And I thought, this is where I'll find something. But the I should say, the first time I went to Chicago, I felt like that city was watching me. And I felt as if I never had a city affect me like that. And I thought I want to be here but I gotta get out of here. And then the further I moved westward, to you know, Wisconsin, cuz you have to go through Wisconsin to get to Minnesota. Everything seemed familiar to me. And I thought this was this was years ago. This is before my father died and everything else. But there was something familiar about this place. Even though I seem to not have any family and I seem to be very original in what I was doing. And I was very self congratulatory, I thought well, you are really smart. And the Twin Cities is a great place. It's progressive, its artistic, it just is everything you know that I am. And it wasn't until circling back to when my father died and my aunt sent that genealogy that I realized, since my ancestors were buried just across the border here, I thought, Lord God, I returned to the mothership. And so there was the effect of researching this. And realizing that, like my Aunt Martha who died, I almost paralleled her steps. So that was, so that's that those are facts that I can verify in terms of my moves or whatever. But then Jim, is I was getting close to writing an article about this Eastland scraping every place I could to try to get information. And about my aunt It was as if I was no longer alone in this quest, and I was living at that point, I was single living by myself in an apartment and I was starting to feel I was not by myself in this apartment. I though, am I cracking up because of Dad's death, and what's going on, but I said, No, I think I feel something here. And then when the time came to write the article, it really wasn't very good. And I thought, oh, Lord, I need to go to the cemetery to see her grave. I just have to see some of this. drove down to Chicago, which is about an eight hour drive from Twin Cities, because I drive slow. And the first thing that happened is when I went to the cemetery, it's monstrous, and I didn't know where they were, I thought, what did you do now? And when I was in the cemetery, I was running around trying to find this thing, nobody could help me. And somehow I didn't realize it, I think because I was so crazy from lack of sleep that I had parked right in front of where their graves were. When I walked back to my car, I saw it, I thought, Oh, Lord. So finding the graves was one of the first things that happened, besides that feeling of whatever and I thought, Oh, my. And then when I knelt down by the graves, I thought I didn't even know you people were here. I've been very emotional. And there was a sense of just kind of being out of the body and back in it again, and I thought, What is going on here? And when I went, drove back to Chicago, the next day to finish my article to get this to my editor, there were things in my apartment that started happening, things were flying off the shelves in the other room, it wasn't very big apartment, but stuff on top of my refrigerator kept falling off. And I thought, now what is this? And I kept putting things back, and then it happened about three times I thought, okay, okay, what do you want, as much I can do? And it was one of those feelings of you got to be kidding. I had seen things like this growing up, but I had forgotten about them, some of the seances and stuff that my dad's people were do, I thought, I know this is possible, but I put it way, way to the back of my mind. Because I'm a rational, sophisticated artiste, don't you know? I thought the Addams family's come back. So I think that I think I'm not about explanations. I'm all always about asking better questions. So it's like, Is this possible? And I think it is that not just I inherited the DNA from my family. But I think I also inherited memory. And I think the whole thing of the door by door from generation to generation, it's a two way street. I'll say that again. And I think as I paid attention to my Aunt Martha, she was returning the favor. And I remember being so scared that I called my mother, my mother just died a month ago, she was just really interesting to me that as the book started, my dad had died. And now as the book is out in the world, my mother dies. The book does it. I called Mommy and I said, Mommy, I think I bought something back in Chicago that I didn't intend. And she said, what are you talking about I said, I think aunt Martha's here. And my mother was a skeptic, lifelong skeptic, an unbeliever though she kind of hoped for something maybe was possible. She said, You know what? She said, if that's the case. She's not going to hurt you. She said, just talk to her and pay attention. Okay. So that's how that all began. But the continuation of the contact with her, my aunt, I could, there were there was tactile things that were happening, I could feel like somebody was touching me, I could feel like somebody was kind of, I don't want to use the word guides. I really hate to talk in cliches. But as I was stuck on writing this article that eventually grew and became a book, it was as if I was led to certain people, certain places, whatever, whatever, that were giving me the information I needed to fill this thing out so it wouldn't be just this boring. And then she died, you know, all the in between things. I thought what happened to you in between that dash of life to death, and I felt I started to know what she was like.

Jim Harold 23:20
And that's, that's really interesting, because, I mean, not to that extent, but it's almost like you have a genealogical soulmate, like somebody in your family, that you really relate to, I'll give you something that happened to me. When I was a little kid, I think it was 1978. My uncle, my great uncle Ernest, who I think maybe I meant met once, who and when I was too young, to realize who I was meaning or anything, or I only have a very vague memory of maybe going to his house. And he died in 1978. And I went to his funeral. It was the first funeral I ever went to, I think I was seven years old when that happened. Seven or eight. And well, no, I would have been eight. So anyway, next time we went back to visit my, my aunt got, you know, a lot of his effects because she had been the one who had been his caregiver. And he got a ton of books. He had a ton of books because he was a school teacher. And he was considered the smart one in the family because everybody else was pretty much you know, definitely blue collar. Definitely. You know, I come from a family coal miners on my dad's side. And, and the thing is, but Ernest was the one he taught school. He went to university. He even I think, did some teaching in the university. So and he had a ton of books. And among those books, were some metaphysical books. And they gave me a bunch of metaphysical books. I was eight years old, I probably shouldn't have been reading these. Yeah, I was kind of young for that, but I mean, you know, and all these kind of it's almost like a lot of kind of, it's almost the secret before the secret. And people like, I think one of the guy's name was was Norval. And there were.

Natalie Zett 25:22
Neville, I think, right? Yeah, that guy.

Jim Harold 25:23
Yeah, there were a lot of different things. And anyway, it was just really interesting to me, I always kind of felt like he was my intellectual soulmate. Because, you know, as a kid, I was pretty bright, and, you know, went to university and so forth. And it was very unlike the rest of my family. And I felt like this weird genealogical tie to him, although I knew very little about him and never really met him as someone who could have intelligent conversation with him. But when they would say different things like he had gadgets and things, and I'm a big gadget guy, a lot of weird parallels that you would think would have nothing to do. Maybe it's just coincidence, but maybe there is something passed along in the genes as it were. That's not just about whether you have blond hair, brown hair, blue eyes, or brown eyes, or, you know, whatever the trait may be. Maybe there's more to it.

Natalie Zett 26:17
Mm hmm. I think you're right. And when saying that my dad always would throw around that kind of ignored it when I was, you know, kid, it's in the blood. And he was say that we could do certain things like my dad was a virtuoso Musician. He had his own radio show in Johnstown and WGAR in Cleveland.

Jim Harold 26:36
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I worked for WGAR for a while. That was way, way later way later.

Natalie Zett 26:44
We were way later but he was, you know, in the 50s. And so busy with how do we know how to do certain things? I don't know, how can we, without training, do things how, for example, for myself, I'm a polyglot, I can look at any language and pretty much read it. And I don't know how I know that. But then I, as I went deeper into genealogy, and this is like a parallel track that I was doing with with researching my Aunt Martha, I became a forensic genealogist, I still do a lot of forensic types of work. Meaning that I'll look up birth parents for people and occasionally deal with some of the more unsavory things that have happened with people, but part of it is using the science but also part of it, Jim, is that I use a lot of my intuition, even though I will never say that. Part of it is I can feel where I supposed to go, I can feel that this person is and this person who has departed wants this to be found, and I can find it, and I'll give it to a client or a friend or whatever. How did you know that? Well, you know, found it in the newspaper, I never want to come straight up and say, it was magic. But in some ways, the blood is the magic some ways the blood is that river that travels through us. And I think that as the only difference about what happened to me, Jim, is that I paid attention. And I thought, why not? Let's have an adventure. And let's just say I am going crazy. Oh, well, it'll be fun. But I think that I got led into this, my second half of life, you're my life's purpose, for connecting people with their long lost families for Nick and myself to my long lost families for making sense out of the craziness that excuse me, that is my family and looking at the darker things of my mother's father's past, for example, what was he doing with with those groups of marching in Madison Square Garden with all the rest of those Neo Nazis in 1939? What can I do to educate people to say, this is not a good idea, folks, you know, and you can make choices. So it's also about which, which dog or whatever do you listen to? On your shoulder? You know, what do you follow? So, and we're born with with all sorts of wonderful and horrifying things. And both my parents had severe trauma too in both of their lives. So again, then they parent to us two kids. And also they made choices too, to be tried to be better people. And I think that's what sustains me. So. Um. I would say to Jim, that one of the biggest gifts that I gave to my mother before her departure from this earth, is her history. And my Aunt Martha was actually the bridge to restoring the relationship with my mother, because she couldn't believe I'd found all this stuff out about her family, and she knew nothing. And she said, You mean, we're all this? And I said, yeah, yeah. And I think it was a healing thing for her.

Jim Harold 29:39
Yeah, my dad, you know, it's, it's like when my dad and my mom and my mom passed in 2013, but my dad's still with us, but when I used to say, well, what are we what's our background? Ah, I'm American, I guess and then they would tell me some gibberish about some stuff that was 90% inaccurate. And then with the DNA testing, and I did some genealogy. It was basically able to trace it back mostly British, or Scottish. But which makes sense that they they settled in West Virginia so that they can make sense, that maps, they came to work in the coal mines and so forth. And actually, my mom's side is way back in the 1700s. They were they were over, they were very , very early, my dad's family was the mid 1800s. So a little bit later. But But regardless, regardless, being able to tell an elder that information, that's very rewarding to say, we did come from somewhere, and we are Americans, but we're not just Americans. And, you know, that's, that's really good thing. And yes, in the course of doing that, you might uncover some unpleasant truth, truths. But I think the only thing that we can do, as people who maybe find something that's dark in our family history is trying to be better people and try to counteract that, that. That badness in maybe somebody who was our family, because we have nothing to do with it. But we can try to be better people and carry the light forward.

Natalie Zett 31:12
I agree with you 1,000%. And I think, too, as a choice, when you know, your history, you're less likely to repeat it. And you're less likely to be blindsided by some weird thing that you want to do. And there's a more conscious way of living, even when you connect to the ancestors. And I think that that's what's made a big difference for me, and it's made me more confident as I go out into the world and talk to other people who have been even more traumatized than my family. Sure, and can give them something of hope and, and, and also have a good time with it. You know, they they do. I do think they want to be found and they will, they will be found if you pay attention to them.

Jim Harold 31:53
Very good. Well, we've been talking about Flower in the River, a family tale finally told by Natalie Zett, Natalie, where can people find the book? And I also know you have a website? So tell us where we can find both.

Natalie Zett 32:07
Well, the book is available on all the usual suspect lists: on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I published wide I'm, I've created a publishing company to do this because no agent would talk to me because it wasn't categorizable. But Amazon has me as a very highly highly rated genealogical book as well as occult fiction, which I didn't intend. But there you go. And then I also have a website that has a long name, but it's the same title as the book. So it's But if you type my name, you can easily find it. Natalie Zett. And yeah, well, thank you, Jim.

Jim Harold 32:44
Thank you, Natalie. Thank you for your support of the shows over the years, and congratulations on this book and continued success with it.

Natalie Zett 32:51
Thank you, Jim. I so appreciate it.

Jim Harold 32:53
And thank you for tuning in to the Other Side. We certainly appreciate it. And we hope that you enjoyed the show as much as we did. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you next time. Have a great week, everybody. Bye. Bye. Thank you, Natalie. That was great.